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complaint v UEFA, LFC, Rabotnicki, FSE/FSF stop “p*ssing down our back and telling us its raining” …

……………………………………stop "p*ssing down our back and telling us its raining" …?

CS>hello Daniela,

well thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to reply,
sure,  I would like you to keep me "in the loop" (because probably thats
all it is , as I am in danger get dizzy suffering from the "spin"
coming out of the "office" of Lfc, the usual BS of UEFA (& any of
the "governing bodies" ..who seemed to have been be trained by the
Geo.W.Bush school of propaganda) I wont repeat my previous criticism of
so -called fans federations, apart from your fed,  I am a member of
"SoS" (Spirit of Shankly) however I have decided to re-activate the
Union that I registered with the "ministry of justice, stuttgart"
significantly on may 1 2000, to take on these subjects however the
friendly association between "E.L.S.U.N" ;  EuRED Liverpool (overseas)
Supporters Union Network;  & the other unions and so-called "fans
representatives" are going to be sorely tested because this (including
the buy out/in of Lfc) is , IMO, a battle for the spirit of football and
the ideals of past generation who fought for rights being trodden on
daily , in & outside of football..

 E.L.S.U.N  will use this
opportunity to attack UEFA , current football club policies & anyone
else who acts against the interest of our local & global REds

Gareth is TOTALLY WRONG, UEFA can EASILY organise the compeition so that
this fiasco does not harm the interests of the people that pay for
their & the clubs existence…this will NO LONGER be tolerated , and
if necessary will be challenged in the international courts …if not
the media…

a) When UEFA knew of a potential conflict (that
would give travelling fans etc less than a week to plan attendance)  they
should have made a decision to avoid it
b) I still believe that such
a large (UEFA is well aware we are the largest travelling
group in Europe) travelling support justifies every effort to make
NO change to the previously advertised schedule (i.e. Lfc play at HOME
on the 29th July)  its hard enough in these difficult economic days to
be a regular fan , never mind one who follows his/her team across europe
as many of our (between 5-10,ooo) do on a regular basis. as for Lfc
need to change their policies when the result is that there is no ticket
info less than one week before a game, and in this case less than 3
days !!!!! , UEFA make billion from us! Lfc exists from our support –
stop "p*ssing down our back and telling us its raining" …
c) The
difference in prices in LFc is not "forgiven" by it happening in another
situation, it causes discontent, and touting and disappointment for
many that could have gone to thursday game.,it stinks and at any level
is downright wrong (and violates international law & an article of
the ECHR)
– if Rabotnicki had offered tickets for last nights game in Anfield @ say 200 euros…what sort of scandal would have come out???
, I have to inform you that we (experienced Supporters)  expect to be
fobbed off by "governing  bodies" and have weak representatives and is
e) in 1995 I conficted with german officials on equal
rights, 54 official complaints in ECHR strasbourg & now the EU
parliament  I will not allow violations of rights go ..

its not
just this example , but a continual NEGLECT & violations of our
rights..and I have not yet talked to the media..I will take on board the
FSF/FSE "workshop reports" when I start to beleieve that you have the
"nouse" and will to challenge the clubs & the "governing bodies"
with any vigour of effect!

best wishes

ChriS Smith
E.L.S.U.N / "Balkan Reds"
Ko-0P UNlimited
81102 Podgorica
email ball_can_reds@mypod-net.org

From: d.wurbs@footballsupporterseurope.org
To: eured@live.nl; garreth.cummins@fsf.org.uk; zreds.ze@gmail.com; ball_can_reds@mypod-net.org
CC: info@fsf.org.uk; info@footballsupporterseurope.org
Subject: RE: mac10728 CS / ELSUN RE: COMPLAINT v UEFA , Rabotnicki & Lfc
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:44:53 +0200

Dear Chris,


sorry for my late reply to your email but I just returned from a
short holiday and didn’t check my emails during the past couple of weeks
as I had to recharge my batteries. Putting your opinion on the FSF and FSE
aside, I’d hereby also like to reply to the content of your email:


First of all, I think Garreth is totally right when saying that –
under the current structure of the competition – UEFA has little or no
choice than to deal with moving or swapping the fixtures like they do which is
at very short notice and thereby not great at all for the fans. I totally


 As for the ticket information, I can obviously not make a
statement on this, I simply didn’t look on the website of Liverpool FC at
that time.

Obviously, however, if what you and/or Garreth say is true
indeed, this is an announcement at very short notice in both cases, given that
it is an away fixture for Liverpool fans.


Anyway, it won’t make any sense to argue on which info is
right and how shitty UEFA is or not but we need to see whether there is any
solution to this. To start with that, I’ve sent an email outlining the
points of your complaint to UEFA and will try to get a response from them.


In the long run, we might want to take this issue up from a
general perspective in talks with UEFA to see what their position is on this in
detail and whether there is any scope for modification of the competition timelines
so that fans’ needs can be considered more adequately.

As for FSE’s position on kick-off times and ticketing, they
are quite clear and can be found in detail in the respective workshop reports
from the European Fans’ Congresses in 2008 in London (Ticketing) and 2009
in Hamburg (Kick-off Times). You can find both reports as pdf files in the
publications section on our website.


If you feel that these positions don’t reflect your
opinion Chris, it might indeed be the case that FSE doesn’t reflect your
viewpoints as a football fan I’m afraid. If you can agree with the
positions in the reports, however, I’m happy to keep you in the loop re
any response on the matter that we might receive from UEFA.










From: EuRED -ZReDs09-10 [mailto:eured@live.nl]
Sent: Mittwoch, 28. Juli 2010 09:25
To: garreth cummins FSF; ZRedS Ze; BalKan REDS Bar/Balkans
Cc: d.wurbs@footballsupporterseurope.org; info fsf; Dani Wurbs, FSE
Subject: mac10728 CS / ELSUN RE: COMPLAINT v UEFA , Rabotnicki & Lfc


up a can of worms..
Gareth thats looks like a "snow job" you have done!
– I am in Skopje – before leaving home yesterday afternoon  (2 days prior
to the game) there was NO CLEAR  info on the lfc offical website
about tickets or prices..
– the cost for locals was e5 per ticket, NOW LFC sell at 5 TIMES THE
COST?…whose blowing smoke….???
This needs a fukll investigation, and your response confirms my opinion that
the FsF/FSE will not represent supporters like us properly..
therefore the EuRED Liverpool Supporters Union (ELSUN) will now exptnd and
offer complaint & litigation services to all supporters from any club who
are dismayed at treatment by UEFA, FIFA, and any officier or bosy that
fails to respects the rights or violates the equality of each supporter
there are plenty of ECHR/UDHR articles to call on in the public sector to
utilise against the people that are danaging our game
note  "no choice"  ????? we shall see!

From: garreth.cummins@fsf.org.uk
To: eured@live.nl
CC: d.wurbs@footballsupporterseurope.org; info@fsf.org.uk;
Subject: RE: COMPLAINT v UEFA , Rabotnicki & Lfc
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:39:17 +0100



While I understand the frustration that fans can suffer with
regard to fixtures being moved at short notice, UEFA had little choice other
than to switch venues with a week’s notice for this fixture given that at
this stage of the competition the structure means that teams are often drawn
against an either/or opposition, as the 2nd and 3rd
qualifying rounds are drawn before the conclusion of the previous round.
Liverpool only found out their opponents on the afternoon of Thursday 22nd
July, meaning that the maximum possible notice they could have given of any
change was 1 week.


In mitigation, the club had announced on their official website
in the run up to the Rabotnicki/FC Mika match that should the other Macedonian
side (Teteks) win their game that the dates of the ties would be switched – http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/possible-europa-fixture-change
– this was put on the site on 16th July, the day the draw for the 3rd
round was made, giving as much notice to fans as possible.


While it may be you believe that Liverpool should gain
precedence over their ‘choice’ of fixture, the clash is not one of
Liverpool’s making but one in the Macedonian league. Given that
Rabotnicki entered the Europa League at the first qualifying round stage and
Teteks at the 2nd qualifying round stage as a result of their
domestic performance last year, the precedence was always going to be given to
Teteks in the event of a clash, as they share the stadium for European
fixtures. A similar situation arose in the Champions League a few seasons ago
as I’m sure you are aware where both AC Milan and Internazionale
qualified as group winners from the group stages, meaning that
Liverpool’s clash with Internazionale was postponed by a week, with Milan
having precedence due to their superior domestic performance over Inter at that


While it is regrettable that such changes have to be made at
short notice, there is little other choice – this isn’t even the
first time this season that fans of Rabotnicki have had to change dates of
their ties, as in the first round their match with Lusitanos of Andorra was
switched owing to a fixture clash with the other Andorran side, UE Santa
Coloma, who were playing Mogren of Montenegro. In all, 11 ties in the first
three qualifying rounds of this season’s Europa League have been switched
after the draw, and unfortunately, many with very little notice. Such is the
lot of the fan of a side in this stage of the competition, I’m afraid.


Lastly, I don’t know where you are looking for the
information for tickets. An announcement was made on the official site on 23rd
July relating to tickets (http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/announcements/rabotnicki-v-liverpool-important-announcement)
advising fans of how to check for details of tickets for this fixture, and the
full selling details have now been announced at http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/tickets/latest-ticket-news/259-ticket/info,
copied out below for your information:


Ticket Office have released the following selling details for our Europa League
away game v FK Rabotnicki


UEFA Europa League 3rd
Round Qualifier

 FK Rabotnicki
v Liverpool

 To be played
at Filip II Arena
On 29th July 2010
Kick Off at 8.45pm (local time)

will be receiving an allocation of 1100 tickets for this ALL TICKET
fixture priced at £26.50 each.

disabled enquiries please contact a member of our disabled team on 0843 170


will be allocated as available and for as long as supplies last to
Season Ticket holders, Corporate Members and Members/Fan Card holders wishing
to travel independently. Please note Thomas Cook will not be running a
package for this fixture.


will be available on 0843 170 5555 (Overseas (0044) 151 9079399). Bookings will
require all Fan Card numbers to be provided and the applicant’s address to be
confirmed. Tickets must either be collected from the Ticket Office or can be
collected from a location in Macedonia on the day of the game.  This
information will be provided at the time of your booking.


must present Fan Cards when applying at the Ticket Office.

purchased for this match will not count as priority for any future matches
within this competition.


Supporters can purchase one ticket per qualifying Fan Card.

can purchase tickets for up to a maximum FOUR qualifying Fan Cards at the
Ticket Office window and on the telephones.

Office hours

– Friday : 8.15am – 3.45pm

note telephone booking lines will open at 8.15am until 5.30pm for sales for
this fixture.

to the short timescale involved we are unable to offer any refunds for this

Author: Ticket Office


While we will stick up for complaints of supporters wherever
possible, we’re not sure that there’s much more that either UEFA or
the club themselves could do about this in this instance.






Azure Design

International Officer

The Football Supporters’

1 Ashmore Terrace, Sunderland, Tyne & Wear, SR2 7DE
Tel: 0330 44 000 44  | 
Mob: 07989 742655  | 
Web:  www.fsf.org.uk




From: EuRED -ZReDs09-10 [mailto:eured@live.nl]
Sent: 27 July 2010 14:52
To: sam sos; info@uefa.com; customer service? LFC; Dani Wurbs, FSE
Cc: Nina donkin Fsf UK (footy); ZRedS Ze; BalKan REDS Bar/Balkans
Subject: COMPLAINT v UEFA , Rabotnicki & Lfc


on behalf of our supporters & members

its a disgrace

– that 2 days prior to our europa league match in Skopje there is no offical
ticket news
– that less than a week before the game planned @ Anfield for 29th July , UEFA
switch the venues , causing extra costs & confusion
– that Lfc as "top seeded club in the Europa league" with probably
the largest away following in Europe , had to switch venues at short notice
(why not change the other macedonian fixture)

its just another example of UEFA mis-managment and a general distain &
contempt for football supporters in general & our supporters in particlular
ChriS Smith
EuRED(Balkan Reds)
Liverpool (overseas) Supporters Union Network
sos member number


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